I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. However, if that's all they had was carbon ROBERT: That's Roy again. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. I think there is something like a nervous system in the forest, because it's the same sort of large network of nodes sending signals to one another. Because I have an appointment. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? The roots of this tree of course can go any way they want to go. We dropped. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". And so I was really excited. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. JAD: Yeah, and hopefully not be liquefied by the fungus beneath us. They somehow have a dye, and don't ask me how they know this or how they figured it out, but they have a little stain that they can put on the springtails to tell if they're alive or dead. Then he would bring them the meat and he would ring a bell. Well, I created these horrible contraptions. Because tree roots and a lot of plant roots are not actually very good at doing what you think they're doing. That would be sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals. And then I would cover them in plastic bags. I don't know where you were that day. And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. And so I designed this experiment to figure that out. So it's predicting something to arrive. This is not so good" signal through the network. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. JAD: If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. Ring, meat, eat. And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? I'll put it down in my fungi. Exactly. Image credits: Photo Credit: Flickred! MONICA GAGLIANO: I created these horrible contraptions. MONICA GAGLIANO: Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. The water is still in there. On our knees with our noses in the ground, and we can't see anything. And so they have this trading system with trees. What is the tree giving back to the fungus? Support Radiolab today at Radiolab.org/donate. Well, people have been measuring this in different forests and ecosystems around the world, and the estimate is anywhere from 20 to 80 percent will go into the ground. ROBERT: I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. [laughs]. Jigs is in trouble!" So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. Or even learn? Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. "I'm under attack!". ROBERT: They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. I do find it magical. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: With help from Amanda Aronczyk, Shima Oliaee ], [LARRY UBELL: Niles Hughes, Jake Arlow, Nigar Fatali ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Phoebe Wang and Katie Ferguson. And we were able to map the network. But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. Me first. No matter how amazing I think that the results are, for some reason people just don't think plants are interesting. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? So I'd seal the plant, the tree in a plastic bag, and then I would inject gas, so tagged with a -- with an isotope, which is radioactive. He was a -- what was he? JENNIFER FRAZER: They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! Ring, meat, eat. She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. Let him talk. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. It's yours." We went to the Bronx, and when we went up there, we -- there was this tall man waiting for us. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. ROBERT: And we saw this in the Bronx. ROBERT: So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever . MONICA GAGLIANO: So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. So they figured out who paid for the murder. Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. Yeah. And so why is that? ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. Jennifer told Latif and I about another role that these fungi play. Fan, light, lean. Hobbled, really. JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. I don't know. JENNIFER FRAZER: They had learned to associate the sound of the bell ROBERT: Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. It just kept curling and curling. I know, I know. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. And so on. AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. Is that what -- is that what this? Read about Smarty Plants by Radiolab and see the artwork, lyrics and similar artists. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly. And they still remembered. So they can't move. It's just this incredible communications network that, you know, people had no idea about in the past, because we couldn't -- didn't know how to look. That is correct. Well of course, there could be a whole -- any number of reasons why, you know, one tree's affected by another. Fan, light, lean. ROBERT: Eventually, she came back after ROBERT: And they still remembered. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. ROBERT: She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. ROBERT: How do you mean? It's condensation. I mean, I see the dirt. Huh. Fan, light, lean. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly, which is pretty amazing. It's okay, puppy. And we dropped it once and twice. I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. We were waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. JENNIFER FRAZER: If you look at these particles under the microscope, you can see the little tunnels. Just a boring set of twigs. I guess you could call it a mimosa plant drop box. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. So he brought them some meat. Nothing happened at all. Hey, it's okay. ROBERT: Two very different options for our plant. They're some other kind of category. ROBERT: After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. Nothing delicious at all. But still. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. But white, translucent and hairy, sort of. So they didn't. She says a timber company would move in and clear cut an entire patch of forest, and then plant some new trees. Or even learn? On the fifth day, they take a look and discover most of the roots, a majority of the roots were heading toward the sound of water. The point here is that the scale of this is so vast, and we didn't know this until very, very recently. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. That apparently -- jury's still out. Radiolab Smarty Plants. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. ROBERT: You don't know what your dog was? Fan, light, lean. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. JAD: And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? But then, scientists did an experiment where they gave some springtails some fungus to eat. ], [ALVIN UBELL: And Alvin Ubell. No, I actually, like even this morning it's already like poof! by Radiolab Follow. The plants would always grow towards the light. ROBERT: Oh! One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. They definitely don't have a brain. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. ROBERT: Little white threads attached to the roots. ROBERT: So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? Why is this network even there? ROBERT: Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? What is it? And again. Never mind. And on this particular day, she's with the whole family. ROBERT: Now that's a very, you know, animals do this experiment, but it got Monica thinking. And you don't see it anywhere. ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. JENNIFER FRAZER: It's definitely crazy. You got somewhere to go? Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. Pics! And the -- I'm gonna mix metaphors here, the webs it weaves. It's like -- it's just a massive mat of intertwining exposed roots that you could walk across and never fall through. ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? ], [ROY HALLING: Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Andy Mills, Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell. Isn't that what you do? Now, it turns out that they're networked, and together they're capable of doing things, of behaviors, forestrial behaviors, that are deeply new. The bell, the meat and the salivation. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. So they figured out who paid for the murder. let's do it! ROBERT: In the Richard Attenborough version, if you want to look on YouTube, he actually takes a nail RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH: This pin will give you an idea. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. That's a parade I'll show up for. Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. JAD: What -- I forgot to ask you something important. Science writer Jen Frazer gave us kind of the standard story. ROBERT: And then she waited a few more days and came back. We dropped. Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. ROBERT: Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. So there's an oak tree right there. ROBERT: But then, scientists did an experiment where they gave some springtails some fungus to eat. And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. But it didn't happen. I was like, "Oh, my God! No. They will send out a "Oh, no! Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". LINCOLN TAIZ: I think you can be open-minded but still objective. And then someone has to count. And I need a bird, a lot of birds, actually. We dropped. Because I have an appointment. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. These guys are actually doing it." JAD: And to Annie McEwen and Brenna Farrow who both produced this piece. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. But when we look at the below ground structure, it looks so much like a brain physically, and now that we're starting to understand how it works, we're going, wow, there's so many parallels. ROBERT: Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. Here's the water.". And then someone has to count. Robert, I have -- you know what? Imagine towering trees to your left and to your right. ROBERT: She says one of the weirdest parts of this though, is when sick trees give up their food, the food doesn't usually go to their kids or even to trees of the same species. ROBERT: And so we're up there in this -- in this old forest with this guy. Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. ROBERT: Huh. JAD: The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? ROY HALLING: So there's an oak tree right there. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori say that the plants can't do something. Exactly. His name is Roy Halling. JENNIFER FRAZER: Minerals from the soil. The bell, the meat and the salivation. ROBERT: We're carefully examining the roots of this oak tree. And it begins to look a lot like an airline flight map, but even more dense. No. We dropped. Back and forth. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. JAD: But still. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? All right. We pulled Jigs out and we threw him in the lake with a great deal of yelping and cursing and swearing, and Jigs was cleaned off. ROBERT: We, as you know, built your elevator. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. If there was only the fan, would the plant After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. And it was almost like, let's see how much I have to stretch it here before you forget. And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. View SmartyPlantsRadioLab Transcript (2).docx from CHEM 001A at Pasadena City College. A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. Just a boring set of twigs. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. JENNIFER FRAZER: It is! JAD: Are you bringing the plant parade again? ROBERT: Yeah. Like, as in the fish. ALVIN UBELL: How much longer? I think there is something like a nervous system in the forest, because it's the same sort of large network of nodes sending signals to one another. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. Nothing happened at all. She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. I mean, I think there's something to that. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. "I'm under attack!". And so now we're down there. So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? That's amazing and fantastic. The plants would always grow towards the light. They're not experiencing extra changes, for example. SUZANNE SIMARD: I know. You mean you got down on all fours and just And so my mom always talks about how she had to constantly be giving me worm medicine because I was -- I always had worms. So there is some water outside of the pipe. You just used a very interesting word. It's like Snow White and The Seven Tubes or something. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. So they didn't. I'm not gonna tell you. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. MONICA GAGLIANO: And it's good it was Sunday. JAD: It was curling each time when it ROBERT: Every time. Jul 30, 2016. I found a little water! On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of ROBERT: And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. Plants are complex and ancient organisms. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: And lastly, a friendly reminder. The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. That's the place where I remember things. LARRY UBELL: It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk, and there's always a puddle at the bottom. As abundant as what was going on above ground. But let me just -- let me give it a try. ROBERT: Inspector Tail is his name. Radiolab - Smarty Plants . Robert Krulwich. ROBERT: Remember I told you how trees make sugar? Just the sound of it? LARRY UBELL: All right, my hypothesis is that what happens is LARRY UBELL: Can I -- can I have a few minutes? Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. These guys are actually doing it." Does it threaten my sense of myself or my place as a human that a plant can do this? ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. Gone. I've always loved Radiolab. ROBERT: Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. Because the only reason why the experiment turned out to be 28 days is because I ran out of time. Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. ROBERT: And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. It's a -- it's a three-pronged answer. I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. I spoke to her with our producer Latif Nasser, and she told us that this -- this network has developed a kind of -- a nice, punny sort of name. Wait a second. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. I thought -- I thought tree roots just sort of did -- like, I thought -- I always imagined tree roots were kind of like straws. And so of course, that was only the beginning. JENNIFER FRAZER: That something bad is happening. I thought okay, so this is just stupid. ROBERT: And we dropped it once, and twice. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. ROBERT: And while it took us a while to see it, apparently these little threads in the soil. ROBERT: And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. ", So the deer's like, "Oh, well. Fan, light, lean. You have a forest, you have mushrooms. ], And Alvin Ubell. MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. Ring, meat, eat. A tree needs something else. But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. SUZANNE SIMARD: No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. ROBERT: Oh, well that's a miracle. Have you hugged your houseplant today? ALVIN UBELL: You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. LARRY UBELL: Me first. Ring, meat, eat. I'm 84. Well, when I was a kid, my family spent every summer in the forest. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. Like, would they figure it out faster this time? ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? It's okay. That is definitely cool. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. ROBERT: And that's just the beginning. 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