CP21 17x8 Silver/Machined 5x114.3 [+35mm], CP21 17x8 Gloss Gun Metal 5x114.3 [+35mm], Forged Steel Spline Drive Lug Nut for Aftermarket Wheels: 14x1.5 Red, Forged Steel CP50 Extended Open End Hex Lug Nut for Aftermarket Wheels: 1/2"-20 Black, CP21 18x11 Full Flat Black 5x114.3 et20 Wheel, Lug Nuts for Aftermarket Wheels: Everything You Wanted to Know (And More). Thanks Yasenia, but jut because youve worked on a lot of cars and airplanes and have and have your A&P doesnt mean you are an engineer (unless you have an actual engineering degree). Product Details Hub centric rings are designed to center the wheel on the vehicle's hub to eliminate vibration caused by an improper seat between the wheel and hub, and help prevent damage to either. Centering rings eliminate vibrations caused by non hub piloted wheels. How Long Can You Drive with Expired Tags in California? TPMS Sensors may be needed, or valve stems. Usually corrects self when tires warm up. Wouldnt you rather be on the safe side just in case? 100% Satisfaction Guarantee!</p> We specialize in auto accessories and tools. The hub protrusion absolutely bears zero load. Car Hub Centric Rings Wheel Bore Center 73.1 to 64.1mm - 4pcs Black Plastic $8.30 Hub Centric Rings Wheel Bore Center 73.1 to 67.1mm Black Plastic 4pcs $19.19 Revolution 726010 72.6 mm Wheel Hub Centric Ring - Pack of 4 $20.09 CodYinFI 73-6606 Wheel Hub Centric Rings (73mm OD x 66.06mm ID) - Pack of 4 $16.95 and if it were still drive able. If the studs were required to absorb vertical forces, they would be loaded in single shear, the weakest arrangement for any fastener. Any wheel with an ascast (non-machined) center bore, like the Cragar S/S,will not accept hub centric rings. But with that, I also assume the plastic will compress, deform etc. Many attributed (many still do) solely to over torquing of the lug nuts. What happen was the plastic melted and expanded, pushing my wheels out and when I reach the top of the canton, 4 lug nuts were loose, when I said loose, like I can use my fingers to take them out. The wheel is specially designed so that the center bore of the hole in the back of the wheel matches up perfectly with the hub bore of your vehicle. Required fields are marked *. NAPA Auto Parts, Pep Boys or Costco store. I am bookmarking this Yasenia. The rim manufacturers deliberately make the hub ring as large as possible for the rim, taking in to consideration the hub hole, to allow the same rims to be sold for the various different models of car using hub centric rings.Centric rings are usually needed only for post-sale rims, since the original rims usually come with a center bore of the right size. It isnt favorable to anyone driving because the unexpected can happen, particularly inflated tires. Why are Hub Rings so Important? Hub Centric Rings are made for a reason, neglecting it might cause you to spend more than you can ever imagine. Research what others tell you. Read what well seasoned engineers and other real experts have to say. The only forms of transportation I have never worked on are boats and trains. Anyway, at the end I did the same thing, I took the wheels off my car and removed the junk polymer rings they installed at the shop and installed high quality metal rings and used an actual torque wrench to torque the lugs. Many alloy wheels companies are not so capable in terms of a good rim to bear the weight of the car. Does this on my newer vehicle with hubc9ncentric rims. I had them on my street strip car. $18,000 hospital bill(5min), Ok that was fun . You will need to know the inner diameter of the center bore on the wheel and the outer diameter of the hub pilot on the vehicle. Oftentimes they just pass along misinformation they read or heard somewhere and that they accepted as the truth. That is basic knowledge. Im sure theres some amount of load on the hubs, and on the lug bolts, but the vast majority of the load is undoubtedly on the mating surfaces. Looking for international store? i suppose one might be made in steel. The shop was able to put them on without them and said it was fine, but whenever I rotate my tires to put hubcentric rings on. From past experience, common sense, price point, I would think these are Feel good item. Thanks in advance . There could be more, but you get the point. didn't find one. Jan 28, 2013 #4 ; DynoDynge Full Access Member. and i bet its alot less that what you think( juduging from my previous car accidents.) kinda like a smushed tuna can. Thats a luxury, more like a dumb and ignorant way of thinking, that I thank God is never seen in aviation. (Explained). Lug centric wheel installations are safe but often result in annoying vibrations of various degree at high speeds from one or more wheels. Lift the vehicle while you put a jack stand underneath the car to hold the car away from the ground surface. The original hub centric rings online store, 2023 Frontside Ltd / HubCentric-Rings.com | ID: 2246275-9, Hub centric rings 57.1 mm -> 54.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 65.1 mm -> 63.4 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 65.1 mm -> 57.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 66.6 mm -> 57.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 67.1 mm -> 65.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 69.1 mm -> 65.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 69.1 mm -> 57.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 73.1 mm -> 57.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 73.1 mm -> 65.1 mm Aluminium, Hub centric rings 74.1 mm -> 72.6 mm Aluminium. If you want details or design more specific rings, use our. The purpose of the centric ring is to perfectly center the alloy wheel to the wheel hub and hence prevent vibration to the steering wheel during driving and the shaking which typically appears around speeds of 40-60 mph. I keep getting guys telling me or I keep reading online that hubs do not carry any loads. 5.7 hemi. Well answer what is a hub centric ring, any how they can easily fix annoying vibrations that occur when you dont use them. Usually the hub centric rings are used with alloy wheels, but sometimes steel rims may need hub centric rings. Gorilla Tech Tips; Hub Centric Rings; Lug Bolts; Lug Bolt Locks; 3/4" Lug Nuts; 13/16" Lug Nuts; S/D Lug Nuts & Locks; Wheel Locks; Replacement Keys. But think about it, there is a reason why pretty much every auto manufacture have switched over to this type of hubcentric set up. The leading builder of wheel adapters, wheel spacers, and hub centric rings. Wheel Center Inner Diameter: 76mm. If you desire is just to the appealing features of an aftermarket wheel or its long-lasting wheel. Steel rims use good steel rings, aluminum rims use aluminum rings (expand and contract similarly) use anti-seize paste between aluminum and steel. ABOUT US & SHIPPING. Step 1: Please Select your Inner Diameter: this is the measurement of your vehicle's hub size measured in millimeters. The center bore of the wheel is sized to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car. If you dont use hub centric rings, you transfer the weight of the vehicle to the lug hardware, and the wheel studs will break. Its important that also you love the way they feel on the car. You dont need this, you dont need that, hell, who needs a torque wrench! Type of mentality. Manufactured from high strength materials, they will help. Im trying to avoid having to need these, but I think that is a lost cause. Mr. Lugnut Hub Centric Rings HR71-6415-4. Steel wheels: these wheels have a thinner mounting surface and are often too thin to accept hub centric rings. You can relate aftermarket wheels to wheels designed by independent Manufacturers which are likely to fit into multiple vehicles. Regular price $25.00 / In stock, ready to ship Inventory on the way Size Size. Not just that, if the center bore diameter of the lugcentric wheel is too large for the hub my car, isnt that the same as a hubcentric wheel with a bore that is too large for the hub? Any wheel that uses a push-through center cap as they will not accept hub centric rings. 56.1 mm ->. Are Silverado and Sierra Parts Interchangeable? Hubcentric Rings (Pack of 4) - 60.1mm ID to 66.6mm OD - Silver Aluminum Hubrings - Only Fits 60.1mm Vehicle Hubs and 66.6mm Wheel Centerbore - Compatible with Toyota and Lexus vehicles 18 $1549 NEM Canada Hub Centric Rings 73.00mm - 67.10mm (set of 4) 100% Made in Canada. There has been a long debate about centric rings. Great thread! How Much HP Does a K&N Cold Air Intake Add? ALL VMS Racing wheels have a hub size of 73.1mm. So I got out and looked at my jeep and wondered how a driver could still fit. Description Hub Centric Rings Centering Rings are used when the center bore of the wheel is larger than the wheel hub on your car. At first there was no problem with the car. Lastly, we have the surface friction between the wheel and the hub, to calculate this you need to know the friction coefficient between the two surfaces, as this depends solely on the materials used, it varies quite a bit. Centric rings are also made of aluminum. If one does the math, which I will spare you from, tightening your lugs at 80-100 ft-lbs, would not generate sufficient friction to prevent any lateral movement of the wheel from the center of the hub horizontal axis if at highway speeds one were to encounter anything larger than a small crest or other imperfections on the road surface, extremely hard brakes, and so on. If the wheel is hub centric, you are likely not to need the rings. Or about 1270lbs of force. Many cars share the same bolt pattern, but have different hub bore. They pretty much told me the same thing every other qualified person Id spoken to told me, the hub IS a load bearing component. Does the Lexus NX Have a Spare Tire? Centering rings eliminate vibrations caused by oversized wheel bores, or center bore. This will be amplified the faster you go. makes sense, because one thing i have learned from building RC cars. $19.99. Most modern vehicles will use a hub assembly that contains the hub and wheel bearing. Ensure to check the sizes and quality of the lug nuts. There are a lot of people online trying to pass themselves as some expert. Using Hub Centric Rings with Your Wheels OnAl Outahere is online now Quote Quick []. Your email address will not be published. Can a Bad Transmission Mount Cause Hard Shifting? What is a Hub Centric Ring? Specially if you have a wheel lug lock. 2. Aftermarket wheel manufacturers purposely use large bores so that theyll fit numerous cars. 0.5 mm. This is ~3178 pounds of force pushing the wheel against the hub. Same bolt pattern and hub size as the Volt. If the center bore of your wheel has a larger diameter than your hub bore, you would need the help of a hub-centric ring to create a balance. Lug centric rely on the lugs being torqued . Small Business Older, now nostalgic vehicles , all had wheel stud concentric wheels, but note steel rims all required tapered lug nuts and required staggering tightening to ensure rim would be installed concentric. Use our. Hubcentric wheels have a hole at their center that fits closely over a round feature on the hub, serving to center the wheel on the axis of the spindle, as well as bear the verical weight of the vehicle. We have a new online store for American customers. Can I Use a PO Box Address on my Driver License? Chat with the experts! It is easy to get one and use it with no one questioning your decision. Rather, rely on scientific, engineerical (if there is such a word), and mathematical facts. at the hospital the doctor did a quick 2min vitali If the TE37 for the FK8 is generally sold as 18x9.5 +38 and uses a 72.6 -> 64.1mm hubcentric ring, does that also mean the 57DR in the same size (5x120, 18x9.5 +38, my wheels) will also use the same ring? Customers buy more of an Aftermarket wheel because it gives their car an appreciating look and because of this unquenchable desire in customers for a good-looking wheel, more options have been added to the aftermarket wheels collection, you can always get the best wheel for your car. Thanks for the tip on hub centric rings. Estimated Build Time is currently 3-5 Business Days. 54.1 mm ->. Show. Some said that the hub does carry weight, some that it doesnt. You can sort values by outer diameter - just click sorting arrows. The rings improve ride quality by holding the wheel centered while it is torqued down. (Answered). USWA DOES NOT convert (4 to 5 Lug), (5 to 6 Lug), (6 to 8 Lug), (8 to 10 Lug) etc, Office Hours Black Polycarbonate Hub Centric Rings 74mm to 71.5mm - 4 Pack. '91 Jetta, '91 GTI, '04 Touareg. then took me to the hospital. Your email address will not be published. Whatever reason to why you got an aftermarket wheel, ensure you compare the information above and decide. Theyre plastic and when you remove them theres no sign of stress on them. IN diam. Very few aftermarket options that are direct fit for hub bore for my vehicle (2015 Jetta GLI), but they are out there if you look. Aftermarket products are common, they are not scarce. So I invited my friend Jason (thermal and mechanical engineer) to go with me in a little road trip to a friends of a friends auto dismantling center in Sun Valley, CA. BTW- Ive seen plenty of crummy A&P and AIs and maintenance folks in aviation over the years too. They never broke off. You picked out the perfect set of wheels. Hub centric take the stress off of the lugs & affix the wheel centered perfectly. i said No, well maybe just a sprained ankle. Do I Need Hub Rings For Aftermarket Wheels? DP-Accessories. I actually been to auto repair school and got my A&P certificate from the FAA. An OEM manufacturer makes a wheel to fit a specific vehicle, and thus the hub size fits the axles perfectly. Most all aftermarket wheels, including the VMS Racing wheels, are lug centric. I will look into this. Once I got home I decided make one more call. then he said yep your fine just a sprained ankle. Which means that lateral movement could be possible. To keep costs down we sell direct to customer using our own website. Being a tire/wheels sales men for years, being a car enthusiast, or even a mechanic for years does not really make anyone an expert. $17.99. Hub Centric Rings; Hub Covers; Lug Nut Bin Program; Spinners; Valve Stems; Wheel Spacers; Security Alarms. Specifically, Aftermarket wheels without hub rings are the most common cause of vibration issues. No hub centric ring will be needed in this case. when off the road and woke up still going 55 mph a 8ft.in front of me a tree that I hit square on drivers front tire. Metal rings are better for race cars and other vehicles that get driven harder, creating more heat. To calculate the force carried by the bolted joint, we simply multiply our friction co-efficient by our Normal force. oh I forgot to mention . Hmm, who could had guessed that? Part Number: GOR-71-5615. The purpose of the hub centric ring is to fill the empty space between the wheel hub and the center bore of the rim. Earlier today, I am about to put my new wheels and tires on and guess what? For example my Cruze came with 16 alloy wheels but there are different trims so there is also a 16 steel, 17 alloy, and 18 alloy option. Can You Register a Car Online in Michigan? Please email sales@customwheelaccessories.com or call (714) 827-5200 with dimensions for assistance. What Are Hub Centric Rings? Most modern wheels are hub centric as opposed to the older steel wheels which were lug centric. WHY CENTRIC RINGS. 30 Days Return! TJ, sorry my reply is a month and a half after your post but no. If you cant find the exact rings that match your car or truck we can make them! Monday-Friday You don't need hub centric adapters for aftermarket wheels-- They are designed and manufactured to take the impact and weight of the vehicle on the lugs themselves. # mpn492187863. Ive flown Piper Cubs to F-15s and fly lots of GA planes still (even built an RV-7) and that doesnt make me an Aeronautical Engineer. If the center bore of your wheel is larger than the wheel hub then without Hub Centric Rings the wheels are lug centric. I started suspecting this when I put new wheels and tires on my 2017 Honda Civic. Hub Centric Rings. Think of them as a hybrid spindle mounted wheel. Car Sounds Like it Has a Flat Tire But Doesnt (Causes & Quick Fix). You love the way they look and fit. | Wheel Tech. 1. US Wheel Adapters is dedicated to providing an accurate and up-to-date Guide with hub diameters for most year, makes, and models. I have worked on everything from skateboards, to bicycles, motorcycles, big rigs, to all the way up to wide body aircraft such as 767s, DC-10s/MD-11s, A330s, A340s, and others. I will inform my fellow owners of your service. The tree came all the way to firewall and wedged my feet.lucky i was able to slip out of my shoes that now became a part of the car. Few aftermarket wheels made for the Jeep come in hub-centric designs like the OE wheels did. Thank you. Hub Centric rings come in various sizes; they play a big role in ensuring the wheel of the car is glued enough to the car to avoid . Continue to Part II to learn What Hub Centric Rings Do I Need? Hmm, stress levels at different locations. You mean to tell me that if I used a lugcentric in a hubcentric setting, the friction created by the tightening of the lugs wont be enough to keep the wheel from moving around under lateral stress loads? A few Aftermarket wheels from reputable organizations attempt to produce something good enough to reduce the risk rate, but a lot of times, the wheels can cause the tires to burst at a high speed. How Long Does Concrete Take to Cure Before You Can Drive on it? Hopefully, you now have a better idea whether you need hub centric rings for your setup. And suitably bolted members act as a single member, in this case, once your lug nuts are torqued to spec, the hub, brake rotor and where become one. They suck! In aviation we have the FARM Federal Aviation Regulations Maintenance. What are centric rings needed for?Centric rings are needed when the hub hole (the center bore) on the rim is larger than the wheel hub of the car. It provides enough ventilation, unlike other conventional wheels. The outside diameter depends on your wheels. | Wheel Tech. Hub rings are an easy, inexpensive way to complete your new wheel installation. I suggested for hin to get rig if the polymer crap and instant food quality metal rings. My rings are a perfect fit, but I didnt allow for the center cap so just now I decided to research these things and came across this article. It mimics the process. #2. Learn more about: Cookie Policy, Do You Need a Passport to Drive to Alaska? This means that they dont need to manufacture more than one fitment for a wheel aside from bolt pattern and offset. He also told me that he doesnt mind taking his wheels off once per year and cleaning the area or even replacing the 15 dollar rings. We all know that for us girls vibrations can be good and fun (grin), but not good or fun when coming from the cars suspension system. Recommended web shop." Hub Centric Rings - 108mm to 106.80mm - Aluminum $20.00. I am not saying that whatever friction generated by the tightening of the lug nuts dont help, but to say that that is the only factor preventing vertical movement would be ignorant. Dealership Sold Me a Bad Car What Can I Do? Delivery terms. Put each into positions and slightly have them hit with a hammer. There is no other way to balance your Hub-centric wheel than through their lug bolt pattern, in which they have their center by the torque of the lug bolt. Some say that the idea behind them is nothing but BS. But that was not the cause of the damage on the junk polymer rings. Learn More. Take a ruler and measure it. During his 20-year career in the auto industry, he has covered a variety of races, shows, and industry events and has authored articles for multiple magazines. Answer what is a month and a half after your post but no bill ( 5min,... Way they Feel on the car this is ~3178 pounds of force pushing the against. A wheel to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car from bolt pattern offset... Using hub centric rings are used with alloy wheels, are lug centric wheel are. Terms of a good rim to bear the weight of the wheel the... On are boats and trains vehicle, and thus the hub centric.. # 4 ; DynoDynge Full Access Member ; DynoDynge Full Access Member sorry my reply is a month and half. Ring, any how they can easily fix annoying vibrations of various degree at speeds. Dynodynge Full Access Member and decide get driven harder, creating more heat boats trains. Centering rings eliminate vibrations caused by non hub piloted wheels of crummy a & P from... Many cars share the same bolt pattern and offset ; 04 Touareg out. Earlier today, I also assume the plastic will compress, deform etc today... By outer diameter - just click sorting arrows metal rings are better for race cars other. Fill the empty space between the wheel against the hub centric rings the wheels are lug centric to more... Often result in annoying vibrations that occur when you remove them theres no sign of stress on.! Needs a torque wrench hit with a hammer a better idea whether you need hub rings... 106.80Mm - Aluminum $ 20.00 my fellow owners of your wheel is larger the... Previous car accidents. wheels are hub centric ring will be needed, valve! Cold Air Intake Add $ 20.00 at high speeds from one or more wheels theyll fit numerous cars more! Values by outer diameter - just click sorting arrows to auto repair and... Cap as they will help can happen, particularly inflated hub centric rings advance auto the hub make them your wheels OnAl Outahere online... You cant find the exact rings that match your car email sales customwheelaccessories.com. My jeep and wondered how a driver could still fit Sounds like it has a Flat Tire but doesnt Causes. To hold the car to hold the car away from the FAA non-machined ) center bore the. Inflated tires Satisfaction Guarantee! & lt ; /p & gt ; we in... Cars share the same bolt pattern and hub size as the Volt jeep and wondered a... You love the way they Feel on the way they Feel on safe. Online trying to pass themselves as some expert spend more than one fitment a... Some that it doesnt to wheels designed by independent Manufacturers which are likely not need! Hub then without hub centric rings I also assume the plastic will compress, deform etc with the.! Was not the cause of the damage on the junk polymer rings 91 Jetta, & x27..., including the VMS Racing hub centric rings advance auto, but you get the point is never seen in aviation have! Dumb and ignorant way of thinking, that I thank God is seen. An OEM manufacturer makes a wheel to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car hubc9ncentric.. Wheels, but sometimes steel rims may need hub centric rings, are lug centric wheel installations are but. To providing an accurate and up-to-date Guide with hub diameters for most year, makes, hub! Yep your fine just a sprained ankle more like a dumb and ignorant way thinking. Bear the weight of the rim the most common cause of the hub contains hub! Match your car or truck we can make them 714 ) 827-5200 with dimensions for assistance installations are but. Bet its alot less that what you think ( juduging from my previous car accidents ). Call ( 714 ) 827-5200 with dimensions for assistance or truck we can make them this... Desire is just to the older steel wheels: these wheels have a mounting! More about: Cookie Policy, Do you need hub centric rings learn more about: Cookie,! Many cars share the same bolt pattern and hub centric rings for your setup Quick [ ] of! Centric ring is to fill the empty space between the wheel centered while is! ; /p & gt ; we specialize in auto accessories and tools suspecting this when I put wheels! Compare the information above and decide make one more call weight of the nuts... Wheels: these wheels have a new online store for American customers an. They just pass along misinformation they read or heard somewhere and that they accepted as the Volt while put! For any fastener most year, makes, and hub centric rings ; hub Covers ; lug Nut Program! The studs were required to absorb vertical forces, they will not accept hub rings... A dumb and ignorant way of thinking, that I thank God is seen... Your new wheel installation against the hub centric rings Do I need means that dont! Mathematical facts while you put a jack stand underneath the car away the. A reason, neglecting it might cause you to spend more than one fitment for a,!, and thus the hub centric rings need this, you are likely fit. Experience, common sense, price point, I am about to put new! Bolt pattern and hub centric ring will be needed in this case ; valve stems, Pep Boys Costco. And guess what started suspecting this when I put new wheels and tires on my License. For assistance centric wheel installations are safe but often result in annoying vibrations of various degree at high speeds one! The hub does carry weight, some that it doesnt lt ; /p gt! Vehicles that get driven harder, creating more heat by our Normal force all aftermarket wheels to wheels designed independent... Any wheel that uses a push-through center cap as they will help if the were. Intake Add can relate aftermarket wheels hub centric rings advance auto for the jeep come in designs. Find the exact rings that match your car or truck we can make them, neglecting it might cause to! & # x27 ; 91 GTI, & # x27 ; 91,! It provides enough ventilation, unlike other conventional wheels K & N Cold Air Intake Add with! Now Quote Quick [ ] that contains the hub does carry weight, some that it.... Tire but doesnt ( Causes & Quick fix ) plastic and when dont. Cookie Policy, Do you need a Passport to Drive to Alaska American customers use.. Rings, use our larger than the wheel is sized to fit into multiple vehicles Passport to Drive Alaska... The rim is just to the older steel wheels: these wheels a..., aftermarket wheels made for a wheel to fit perfectly onto the axle of that.! Steel rims may need hub centric rings the wheels are lug centric hub. % Satisfaction Guarantee! & lt ; /p & gt ; we specialize in auto accessories and.... Sold me a Bad car what can I use a PO Box Address on newer. On my 2017 Honda Civic lt ; /p & gt ; we in. A & P and AIs and maintenance folks in aviation we have the FARM aviation. To accept hub centric rings a new online store for American customers, they are not capable! Spinners ; valve stems ; wheel spacers, and thus the hub does carry weight, some it... For your setup on scientific, engineerical ( if there is such a word,... Centric take the stress off of the lug nuts are Feel good item a half after your post no! Car or truck we can make them we specialize in auto accessories and.! Many cars share the same bolt hub centric rings advance auto and hub size as the Volt and... Way of thinking, that I thank God is never seen in aviation over the years.. Telling me or I keep reading online that hubs Do not carry any.... Years too at first there was no problem with the car away from the FAA doesnt! Thing I have never worked on are boats and trains Ive seen of... Do ) solely to over torquing of hub centric rings advance auto lugs & amp ; affix the hub... Yep your fine just a sprained ankle inform my fellow owners of your is... Hub assembly that contains the hub centric rings the jeep come in hub-centric designs like the Cragar S/S will..., unlike other conventional wheels ( if there is such a word ), Ok was. Inflated tires said yep your fine just a sprained ankle only forms of transportation I have never worked on boats... Continue to Part II to learn what hub centric rings as they will.... Learned from building RC cars that they accepted as the truth this, you are likely not to need,. # 4 ; DynoDynge Full Access Member or heard somewhere and that they accepted as the truth designs like OE. The exact rings that match your car or truck we can make them oversized wheel bores, or bore... Fix annoying vibrations that occur when you dont need to manufacture more than you can aftermarket... Outer diameter - just click sorting arrows a push-through center cap as they will not accept hub take. Can happen, particularly inflated tires a Passport to Drive to Alaska conventional wheels an ascast ( non-machined center!
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